Talk:Throwing Axeman (Age of Empires II)/@comment-2409:4071:2293:314E:6DD8:F34F:C545:F937-20180816125903/@comment-2405:204:5102:4D8D:8511:6892:B728:FECC-20180901113748

Sorry Papermaniac, None of the counter points you hv made are convincing so let me summarize key aspects of the Franks Civ which make it the weakest Civ in the game and the worst Civ to ally with:


 * 1) Worst Light Cav in the game (vs Civs w/bloodlines)


 * 1) Worst Skirmishers in the game


 * 1) Worst Archery Range in the game


 * 1) Worst Unique Unit in the game


 * 1) Worst Unique techs (both) in the whole game


 * 1) Worst Eco Bonus in the entire game


 * 1) Worst Navy in the game


 * 1) Worst Team Bonus in the game.

Try ranking all the Civs on each of the above and check it yourself. Even if u try hard, it's tough to make (as Dev) a Civ as weak as the Franks!

Eco Bonus:

Berry Bushes sure number more than 1 in a few maps, but they're not near your starting TC. They appear far away and come into play in post castle age only when u are hustling for map control. And in that stage u are mostly looking for Gold and not berries because your farms are already generating more food than foraging. So this bonus is pointless and gives u only 25F (or less) if u put 1 vil on a 6 tiles berry bush. Franks are so unfortunate that they got an eco bonus in farm upgrades that are intrinsically designed to pay off very slow. Horse collar begins to start effect only after your first farms go fallow. So if u build your farms late in Dark age (common), then it will take that much more time to go fallow even after Age up to Feudal. What is more, your farms will consume SAME amount of wood the first time and begins saving wood only from the second iteration onwards. That 75 extra food generated comes into play only a while later - for each Horse collar and Plow upgrade. Moreover farms are affected by build speed and walking speed and Franks don’t get bonus here. Being a Dark and Feudal tech, these bonuses are so IMPORTANT and the Franks are a let down. Compare this to wood cutting and mining bonuses which pay off instantly. Lumberjacks cut more wood instantly after Age up but not Farms - they’re designed to pay off later - so effectively Franks don’t get ANY eco bonus spike in the early game. No wood savings either (at least not instantly). These bonuses work fine in  imperial only!

Civ Bonus:

Cheap castles are a good bonus and I have to admit this is an advantage the Franks do have. Even if they don’t get stone shaft mining.

20% HP for Cav units looks great on paper but not in practice. Scouts are 54 HP - which is nice in Feudal but is difficult to mass in Feudal (at 80F its quite expensive in Feudal age and if you make them, then u delay your castle Age up). Slow training times is another problem with. Light Cav is the worst because only 72 HP - as I have shown in other posts! 10 Halbs can easily kill 20 Frankish Light Cavs. In summary, this Civ bonus works as Free Bloodlines (really cheap 100F, 150G and quick to research ) - which means the Franks get the lowest or cheapest bonus among all Civs!

Unique Techs:

I have elaborated in other posts - anyone with 10 stables (or more) can easily create Cav units faster than Franks. And Franks have to pay 400G for this tech - ridiculous! Bearded Axe tech again gives only +1 range for the Axeman for a spend of 400F and 400G! Most other Civs get one unique tech not costing any Gold!

Unique unit:

Sorry but the Axeman cannot be paired with Paladins - because the Axeman is a static unit (a human trebuchet) and the Pal is a fast mobile unit. You have to micro and make him attack in the Stand Ground stance - this is the only way he works. Add the frame delay, low attack, wandering away problem, encircling problem and poor accuracy ( for moving targets) easily makes him the worst unique unit. And you cannot use skirms because no bracer, armor and no thumb ring! H Cav Archers have only 50% accuracy and thus needn’t even be researched. Hand canon is available but they are gold units - doesn’t compare with skirms that other Civs have. This adds to the negatives of the Frankish Paladins - ( because no support units)

Team Bonus : Not only is this useless, it also adds to the wandering away problem. With higher LOS, Cav units tend to spot enemy units from far away and start chasing them instead of attacking the enemy units. This happens very frequently with Frankish units!

p.s. How exactly will u make Light Cav in Feudal age??