Talk:Franks/@comment-24444169-20170626134524/@comment-27202541-20171012135828

Throwing Axemen are actually very good, I don't see why people think they're weak.

You're essentially supposed to use them as a replacement for the Hand Cannoneer. However, the Franks already get hand cannons anyway. So you might ask, why go ETX when you can go HCs?

There are actually a bunch of reasons.

The first is that usually, the Franks will have Halberdiers at the front of their army as the expendable meatshield that protects against cavalry. Therefore, you get all of the infantry upgrades, like Plate Mail Armor, Blast Furnace, Tracking, Squires etc. These techs all apply to Throwing Axemen too, making it natural to make them.

The second is that the Franks have 25% cheaper Castles, allowing them to mass Throwing Axemen a lot easier by making a lot of Castles. By imp you'll probably already have a Castle built in most games even as regular civs, so Franks should have no trouble getting one up with the cheaper cost.

The third is that Throwing Axemen are just statistically better than Hand Cannoneers. Let's take a look at some stats and compare them. HC = Hand Cannoneer, and ETX = Elite Throwing Axeman.

HC = 5 frame delay. ETX = 8 frame delay (slower).

HC = 3 second reload time. ETX = 2 second reload time (faster).

HC = 65% accuracy. ETX = 100% accuracy (more accurate).

HC = 35 HP. ETX = 70 HP (tankier).

HC = 0.96 movement speed. ETX = 1.1 movement speed after Squires (faster).

HC = 7 range. ETX = 4+1 range (shorter).

HC = 34 second training time. ETX = 17 second training time (faster).

HC = 45 food, 50 gold. ETX = 55 food, 25 gold (cheaper, especially in gold).

HC = 5.5 projectile speed. ETX = 7 projectile speed (faster).

HC = +10 vs infantry, + 1 extra vs spearmen,  +2 vs rams. ETX = +2 vs eagle warriors, +2 vs buildings.

Essentially, going for Hand Cannoneers as the Franks instead of going for Elite Throwing Axemen is not as efficient. The ETX are just better; they have more damage per second (except against infantry), higher accuracy and higher projectile speed (harder to dodge), more HP (more resistant to Onagers and Bombard Cannons) and don't take bonus damage from skirms or other anti-archer units (because they're classed as infantry instead), move faster, create faster and are made from Franks 25% cheaper castles, cost less (especially in gold), and benefit from the infantry upgrades that you will have already researched for your Halberdiers. Going HCs is also bad because you have no other uses for your Archery Ranges, the only effective unit you can make from there is HCs, and Franks don't have Ring Archer Armor either.

Throwing Axemen act as both anti-infantry, anti-trash, AND anti-siege (except Onagers and Heavy Scorpions still fare decently).

The Franks are also just a good civ all-round. They have a great 21 pop feudal age advancement due to their 25% faster foragers, they also save 75 food and 75 wood there because of the free Horse Collar (and you're guaranteed for all of your farms you make in feudal to have 250 wood instead of 175), and they get 54 HP scouts instead of 45 HP. They have a great scout rush, I'd say it's the best in the game (along with Magyars), or maybe second best, behind the Mongols super fast scout rush. The Franks also have a great fast castle into Knights in the pocket in a team game, where they go up faster because of the foraging bonus, and have essentially a free Bloodlines effect for their Knights, which is very important in early castle. And on Arena they have a good fast castle into a castle drop because of their 25% discount on their Castles, and the Throwing Axemen they can make there will apply a lot of pressure against buildings and are actually quite cheap, a decent counter to the regular monks+siege you find on Arena. On BF they have the best Paladins in the game, and also Onagers, Bombard Cannons, and Heavy Scorpions, with Siege Engineer available.

I really love the Franks now. The Forgotten team did a good job with the balance.