Talk:Ballista Elephant/@comment-30831233-20170328200002/@comment-2.247.250.90-20171118171433

" other possible solution is giving them bonus armor instead of negative armor, maybe +16/+20"

that would be hefty; 12 should be enough, which would already rule out Mangonels for bonus damage, as well as Huszars, Eagles, Mangudais; they should not outweight the bonus damage of bombard-cannons.

All of this, however, requires the other negative armor classes to be increased; -5 and -5 for cavalry and Elephant, at least - maybe more -, to balance it out. The problem I see is, that this tanky unit could become OP very quickly, if you dish out positives in the armor-class department, left and right.

" Negative armor classes should be eliminated in this unit"

No, they shouldn't. Thank god, that you are not in charge of any balancing efforts. Would be Rome2 level of ridiculous, when you would turn weak into OP...

Think of it this way: how should Inkas, for starters, deal with a massive onslaught of those units? - sending a great lot of Halberdiers quickly ends in the BE's maximizing their pass-through damage, before the units would even reach them. ([original] caravel-levels of OP for mass-vs-mass battles). The few reaching them, should do massive damage, to balance that out, hence negative armor classes should be mandatory. - the "rock, paper, scissors" principle shall not be infringed upon!

I'd rather see this unit get

a) more attack-damage

[with -- ]

b) worsened fire rate

c) More speed (+0.1 (=0.9)? would equal militia, but still be inferior to halberds; if you go for +0.2 (=1) a massive increase in frame delay would be mandatory; and maybe even then a bad choice; +0.15 (=0.95), maybe? - the sweet-spot between most infantry-units and halberds...)

d) +1 additional range (their range is abysmal); possibly some increase in splash

and - yes:

e) +12 in siege-armor class, but with an increase in negative armor for cavalry and elephant. "-5" overall in each case may not be enough...

and, possibly:

f) include another armor class (sounds more complicated than it is, given the few units that this effects): "cavalry-archer" (allows mostly only for skirmishers to do somewhat better; in exchange for the decreased effect halberds have)

this last one is more like a "ah! - whatever! - while we are at it:..." sort of addendum

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all in all, this unit is an odd-ball for me, to put into perspective. If I am playing against AI with many "players", overlooking a khmer-player can result into a painful swarming in the wrong moment (esp. given the superb micromanagment of AI players), for which to deal with (depending on civ I play), given choke-points, can become a pain in the butt, even with massive reserves in resources, and well set-up defenses(*) -- but at the same time I cannot, for the live of me, put this unit to good use when trying to play them myself. a combination of battle-elephants and scorpions seems to be a superior choise in any possible scenario...

... in that sense it is very similar for me to warwaggons (koreans) which I struggle to put to use, also, whilst at the same time, getting awfully problematic in the aforementioned scenario.

ultimately: I think those [balanced(?)] changes could work to make the unit more managable (!), without overpowering it; the distance to be crossed for counter-units increases, whilst hit and run gets [even] less doable (for the BE); the damage to be soaked up gets more managable (esp. from anti- siege units; how many counter-units have "range"?)

(sorry for the long reply)

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*) with my probelmatic Incas in particular (I love that civ; but against khmer I oddly struggle, if I do not strictly prioritize them, pressuring them early; tall order, if there are more enemies to the equaction!), I should try to support my defenses with some trebuchets and mangonels, though; if I put them at just the right distance (stand ground!), their range and focus-fire (trebs) should discourage any massive onslaught of those units, which, in turn, could benefit a timely excursion with eagles... otherwise I always struggle with how costly such an excursion becomes in terms of gold being invested/lost; (yes, yes, I admit: at times I am turtling too much :D); and kamayuks? - their speed, although passable, becomes an issue when having to go through too many of those ballista arrows doing their pass-through damage, before the target can be reached)